156 replies to this topic

[TamerSA]

Ok, before you jump on me I want to state that this is a very honest and serious question coming from a below average player who doesn't bother to number crunch or meta.

Even with all of my noobness, simply observing and experiencing the game itself makes me wonder why there is such an outcry to nerf Clans or make teams 12 v 10 or whatever the latest trend is.

There are really only a handful of good Clan mechs. To my account the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf are the most notable of those mechs. The rest are basically outperformed by an IS same weight variant.

Clan ballistics feel sub-par compared to most IS equivalents. Again, I am not a good player at all, however I immediately notice the difference in impact between carrying an IS AC20 vs a Clan AC20. There is simply more of a punch.

Finally, so far all of the Wave 2 Clan mechs have been negligible in this debate. Even the Hellbringer (which I love) only brings ECM in a heavy to the table. The hitboxes make me think of the old Awesome school bus debate. There is a lot of CT on it to hit.

So now my question again is honestly... why the witch hunt on Clan mechs? If anything, I feel they have been down-balanced from their lore glory to the point where they equal IS mechs instead of surpass them. Which I understand is needed for an online real-time game that is not governed by TT engagement rules.

[Desolator]

Because people are bad players, poor sports, and just want everything to be handed to them.

[SaltBeef]

I like the hellbringer!!... you will see giver some time. She is almost as great as a timberwolf. Clan autocanons could use a boost in round velocity and a tighter grouping with less rounds that do more damage but there would have to be a IS trade off XL penalties or engine hit crits table enforced for all engine types. Clan autocannons looks great and sound great though no need to change any of that. Remember and I do believe PGI will fast forward the timetable a bit over then next few years. IS get the Nasty X-pulse lasers, Mount 2 on a locust and Game over..game over man!! ,(for his targets that is). IS also gets Omni.s the Clans will be reeling.

Edited by SaltBeef, 04 December 2014 - 12:04 AM.

[KharnZor]

I for one dont want them nerfed.
Generally speaking those who cry for nerfs have an almost complete lack of understanding as to how they play.

[Alek Ituin]

SaltBeef, on 04 December 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

I like the hellbringer!!... you will see giver some time. She is almost as great as a timberwolf. Clan autocanons could use a boost in round velocity and a tighter grouping with less rounds that do more damage but there would have to be a IS trade off XL penalties or engine hit crits table enforced for all engine types. Clan autocannons looks great and sound great though no need to change any of that. Remember and I do believe PGI will fast forward the timetable a bit over then next few years. IS get the Nasty X-pulse lasers, Mount 2 on a locust and Game over..game over man!! ,(for his targets that is). IS also gets Omni.s the Clans will be reeling.

The Clans are already reeling.

With the exception of the top 3 (TBR, SCR, DWF) Clan Mechs, the rest are flat out sub-par to an IS Mech of equivalent tonnage. Their weapons take longer to deal the same damage, and they produce (almost) exponentially more heat than an IS weapon, for an often meager advantage in tonnage and range. They're stuck with whatever structure, armor, and engine they had in TT, while IS Mechs can freely change every little thing about the Mech.

In short: Clans are rapidly becoming an inferior choice to IS Mechs. This needs to change.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 04 December 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[kf envy]

id say there really inferior the only clan mech i may think twice taking on is an dire wolf head on in my hunchback but any other clan mech no problem sure the weapons our an few more tons but i have pinpoint damage and dont run as hot as an clan mech so im able to keep pounding them longer an they end up over heating. now with my timber wolf i have to sacrifice damage for cooling. so that means less ammo and less weapons i can bring to the match. so over all to me clan mechs our out classed and out gunned by just about all IS mechs an weapons.

Edited by kf envy, 04 December 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[TwentyOne]

For the most part, the clans as a unit are not overpowered. It is just the Scrow/Timber that break the balance of this game in half. Those 2 mechs are so broken they might as well just remove every other heavy and med in the game. At least Dire Wolf is slow, Scrow and Timber have no weakness and truly can beat anything in their class.

[Mycrus]

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Ok, before you jump on me I want to state that this is a very honest and serious question coming from a below average player who doesn't bother to number crunch or meta.

Even with all of my noobness, simply observing and experiencing the game itself makes me wonder why there is such an outcry to nerf Clans or make teams 12 v 10 or whatever the latest trend is.

There are really only a handful of good Clan mechs. To my account the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf are the most notable of those mechs. The rest are basically outperformed by an IS same weight variant.

Clan ballistics feel sub-par compared to most IS equivalents. Again, I am not a good player at all, however I immediately notice the difference in impact between carrying an IS AC20 vs a Clan AC20. There is simply more of a punch.

Finally, so far all of the Wave 2 Clan mechs have been negligible in this debate. Even the Hellbringer (which I love) only brings ECM in a heavy to the table. The hitboxes make me think of the old Awesome school bus debate. There is a lot of CT on it to hit.

So now my question again is honestly... why the witch hunt on Clan mechs? If anything, I feel they have been down-balanced from their lore glory to the point where they equal IS mechs instead of surpass them. Which I understand is needed for an online real-time game that is not governed by TT engagement rules.

make the clamz as OP as possible... not enough tearz flow when i pwn them with my IS mech...

[Myke Pantera]

Before PGI goes ahead in balancing IS vs Clans, i think they need to balance Clan Chassis against each other. Stormcrow, Timerwolf and Direwolf dominate every competitive tier list, but by balancing those 3 against the IS mechs, some other clan chassis are dealt a pretty bad hand to start with.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 04 December 2014 - 12:56 AM.

[The Boz]

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

There are really only a handful of good Clan mechs. To my account the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf are the most notable of those mechs. The rest are basically outperformed by an IS same weight variant.

The Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and StormCrow are head and shoulders above all the other mechs in their weight class. Most of the other Clams, except for the Lights, are top tier mechs in their respective weight classes, while the rest are middling-to-average (Nova and Summoner, for example).

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Clan ballistics feel sub-par compared to most IS equivalents. Again, I am not a good player at all, however I immediately notice the difference in impact between carrying an IS AC20 vs a Clan AC20. There is simply more of a punch.

I should bloody well hope that a heavier and larger weapon packs more of a punch than a smaller and lighter weapon, especially if the first one is placed on a mech that has less room and free tonnage than the second.

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Finally, so far all of the Wave 2 Clan mechs have been negligible in this debate. Even the Hellbringer (which I love) only brings ECM in a heavy to the table. The hitboxes make me think of the old Awesome school bus debate. There is a lot of CT on it to hit.

Hellbringer is T1. You'd have to be pretty damn daft to claim otherwise.

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

So now my question again is honestly... why the witch hunt on Clan mechs? If anything, I feel they have been down-balanced from their lore glory to the point where they equal IS mechs instead of surpass them. Which I understand is needed for an online real-time game that is not governed by TT engagement rules.

In an one-for-one no-respawn arena shooter, the mechs are supposed to be equal. Because very few players will volunteer for the fodder role if they can take the non-fodder role.
Alternatively, make the clans superior in every way, and have the fights Clams vs IS mechs and armor and artillery and aircraft, and then permanently ban any clanner that uses an artillery strike or indirect fire LRMs or attacks without announcement of a challenge.

[TamerSA]

Thanks for the valid feedback points Boz, and the not so valid or needed personal attacks here and there....

I sticking to my observation about the Hellbringer, I think it's CT is a very easy target and I've been killed in and have killed enough Hellbringers to feel confident in that statement. But you are entitled to your opinion.

I am glad to see a few IS loyalists state that Clan mechs are equal to or even inferior to IS mechs, because this is really the overall feeling I get from the game as it stands. I love my Clan mechs, but I work much harder to pull good games out of them than from my IS mechs.

I also personally think that the nerfs to heat on the Clan lasers were a bit kneejerk because Clans were so new, and people were looking at the numbers rather than how the games played.

But again, this is all just my opinion I am by no means an expert so no need to attack me. I'm not really here to pick a side of a fence on debated topics, I enjoy the game as a whole and will gladly play for years to come regardless of the niggles.

[NovaFury]

A lot of people are still bitter about the clan tech coming out as being superior decades ago.

[BOWMANGR]

Nerfing all Clan mechs as they perform right now is ridiculous and I can definitely attribute it to butthurt IS players that just got killed by X Clanner. This is coming from someone who was arguing for Clan nerfs from the very beginning because I just couldn't sit there and read idiotic Clan arguments about how their 25 positive values are outweighed by their about 1 and a half negative effect like beam duration. I still remember one guy arguing that IS XL engines are better because they may kill you instantly when destroyed but you do have customisationzomg while poor Clanners are still alive and kicking but they are gimped on Mechlab. Say what? Is MechlabTM a game? Can I score, gain C-bills and win by playing MechlabTM where IS is apparently better? *sigh

Ridiculous arguments aside, nerfing the TimberGod and the OPCrow is definitely needed. Quirks can take care of that. If you ask me they should leave the DireWolf as is or even make all Assaults in the game twist a bit slower {to make Lights more viable}, positive quirk all Clan mechs based on tiers and then NEGATIVE quirk the two offenders. There is a disparity on the power level between those two mechs and all other Clan chassis. Nerfing ALL of them will just result in making most of them crap and keeping the disparity intact.

[The Boz]

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

Thanks for the valid feedback points Boz, and the not so valid or needed personal attacks here and there....

What, the daft Hellbringer comment? Wasn't aimed specifically at you, but at the nameless reader.

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

I sticking to my observation about the Hellbringer, I think it's CT is a very easy target and I've been killed in and have killed enough Hellbringers to feel confident in that statement. But you are entitled to your opinion.

It's CT is easy to target, but that is mostly a hotfixable issue. Also, I have been killed once because I tried to take off it's red and exposed LST, only to hit the orange CT armor to no discernible effect. And then my Spider tripped, and I got splattered across the windshield.

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

I am glad to see a few IS loyalists state that Clan mechs are equal to or even inferior to IS mechs, because this is really the overall feeling I get from the game as it stands. I love my Clan mechs, but I work much harder to pull good games out of them than from my IS mechs.

Let's talk Heavies. Even if it were numerically balanced with IS 65 tonners, the Hellbringer would still stand above them thanks to the ECM. Firepower-wise, it is very slightly inferior to the Thunderwub, but it brings more utility in the form of speed and ECM. The Summoner is very much comparable to both the Cataphract and Orion, and some builds on each of those can "bring better" than it only because it is limited to Standard structure. The Mad Dog is better than all IS 60 tonners when it comes to boating LRMs or longer range energy (it flat out beats most Catapult variants, some Jagermechs and Quickdraws, and one Dragon), but doesn't have good staying/brawling power. Is balanced. Don't think I need to say a single word about the Timber Wolf. So, out of four mechs, one is Tier Alpha Omega Endgame Extreme Murder Death Kill ZX, another is T1, together with a grand total of two IS mech variants, and the other two are in T2, together with a few IS mechs. None are T3, although more than half the IS Heavies sit there, or are even now still worse.

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

I also personally think that the nerfs to heat on the Clan lasers were a bit kneejerk because Clans were so new, and people were looking at the numbers rather than how the games played.

C-LPL, and in general, C-P, are somewhat inefficient when comparing beam time and damage and heat to the IS counterparts, but they do offer somewhat better range... The other lasers follow a flat "20% more heat and beam time for 20% more damage and range", give or take a percentage here and there. Do keep in mind that a C-ERLL + two C-DHS is equal to one IS ERLL + one DHS in terms of weight and size, but comes out on top in DPS and heat generation.

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

But again, this is all just my opinion I am by no means an expert so no need to attack me. I'm not really here to pick a side of a fence on debated topics, I enjoy the game as a whole and will gladly play for years to come regardless of the niggles.

I wasn't trying to attack you, and I'm sorry that you think otherwise.

[mad kat]

Remember this game is not about how hard you hit (within reason) but where you hit. Clans should never be allowed to ROFL stomp IS mechs as they would in lore otherwise IS would be made redundant immediately. I've said it before and i'll say it again PGI made it plenty clear enough in plenty of time that the clans would have a different flavour and not be the all singing all dancing mechs they're supposed to be. I was shrewd enough to see this and didn't jump on the clan bandwagon like so so many players have and now guess what people are crying about how clans aren't what they were expected to be.

You can't please some people. Now remember my first point, clans have big cockpits most of their weapons are in their arms, you remove a side torso and you take a fith of their heat efficiency off along with a lot of their weapons Not quite so laser vomit are you now Nova. Yeah sure i wouldn't go face to face with a Direwolf in my Awesome 8Q he out guns me, i'm an easy target he can sustain damage (and screen shake) so my aim is thrown off but when i can see that his arms are filled with autocannons my high pinpoint alpha can almost half his firepower in one shot maybe two.

[Kutfroat]

clan autocannons need some buffs (or IS autocannons need to be made burstfire, too), timberwolf and direwolf still need some nerfs (the mechs, not the weapons).

[Molossian Dog]

Because conspiiiiraaacceeeyy.


On the other hand, as long as the best 3 Mechs in the game are still clan Mechs, I don´t know why we even have this discussion.

The Timberderp´s JJ-glitch and the Stormcrow´s void shields are just the icing on the cake.


Problem is:
If you give people the candy of OP and then try to take it away from them...lots of tears...

Edited by Molossian Dog, 04 December 2014 - 02:17 AM.

[Eboli]

Initially a few of the Clan mechs were quite overpowered when the first came into MWO. PGI did a number of tests of IS vs Clans and the Clans won the majority of the matches. Accusations of tanking occurred.

As CW was a planned action for MWO PGI felt that the Clans had to be nerfed so that the IS could be more competitive against them, otherwise a lot of players would choose to play Clan and only the diehards will play the IS and the likelihood of loosing the Innersphere realm. A balance needed to be maintained for gameplay for both sides.

Some players still think that certain Clan mechs (TBR Dwolf and Stormcrow) are still too powerful (insert TBR rear armour issue) which may be true but on the flipside other Clan mechs are not as competitive as their IS counters.

In my opinion the Clans are currently in the right level and I would not like to see them being nerfed any more until CW is fully implemented and PGI can get some real IS vs Clan stats.

The TBR needs to be looked at concerned the rear armour hitbox issues. PGI will also look at quirks for the Clans but I think this should only happen after CW has launched and stats are crunched.

In literature, regarding to 10 vs 12, the Clans ran a Star of 5 mechs versus the traditional 4 for IS. Therefore 2 Clan Stars vs 3 IS. Some people also believed that the Clan mechs should not have been nerfed if PGI ran it as 10 vs 12. PGI has stated that they cannot program the game in that way (IMHO it was more like time and effort versus financial benefit).

Anyhow, that is my unbiased take on it. I have Clan mechs but i will be playing IS.\

Cheers!
Eboli

Edited by Eboli, 04 December 2014 - 02:30 AM.

[TamerSA]

Good comments overall. Didn't take anything too personally Boz, so np I just want to avoid the usual forum trolling posts where the focus changes from the debate at hand to name calling and senseless attacks.

I don't have a problem accepting Clans have the 3 best mechs in the game, but this is hurting the rest of the arsenal. It's also unfortunately a coin toss... Russ himself said in an interview that they cannot predict everything and cannot now all but remove the mechs just because they play well.

I also accept that Clans would need a different flavour and cannot just ROFLstomp IS, but I' expect that "different flavour" to at least be viable and not simply weaker than IS. It has to work both ways.

I am however glad I am not the one who has to try and balance the game

[Molossian Dog]

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

...
I don't have a problem accepting Clans have the 3 best mechs in the game, but this is hurting the rest of the arsenal...

The thing is you now read people crying for a buff of the rest of the clan mechs instead of a nerfing of the usual suspects. They have become used to disregard Mechs like the Summoner and Warhawk and anything below Timberderp level is called DOA by habit.
They expect, no, they demand and feel entitled to that every clan Mech is supposed to play at that level. When their performance drops markedly because they sit in a Mech that doesn´t profit from bugs...well let´s just say it ain´t pretty.

This is what my, admittedly hyperbolic, comment in the last post aimed at. Once you give people easy mode, you spoil them.

TamerSA, on 04 December 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

...Russ himself said in an interview that they cannot predict everything and cannot now all but remove the mechs just because they play well...

I´ll just don my tin foil hat and say that I have hard time believing this. It would be a major coincidence that exactly the Timberderp, the most reknown, most iconic and therefore most profitable BattleMech turns out to -accidentally- be head and shoulders above the rest.
That people get a good feeling after they made an investment and are likely to do so in the future surely has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, I´ll be called a butthurt conspiracy theorist for that. Give it a go.